Writing Meta and pimpage

[winter]

First of all, two points of interest. One: guede_mazaka wrote a bijou Sin City/Constantine crossover. Go and bother her to write some more. Two: temve, quite apart from being a very good writer, makes customized Qui-Gon figures that had me in stitches. Go and marvel.

But it’s not all fun and games in Beth’s head today...


The curse of Mary Sue

Any fanfiction reader worth their salt knows the basic way to tell Mary Sues from legitimate original characters (OCs). They’re perfect and have the same – or better – powers as the main characters. They are or become best friends, relatives or romantic interests of the main characters. The story revolves around them.

The case in point: Will to Act (working title), also known as the Darth Qui-Gon fic. And the fact it now has a cast of three original characters, all of them Sith and (ex)apprentices to either Qui-Gon or Dooku, and all of them at some moments driving the story forward. One’s even female – if she weren’t African-Corellian, a manipulative bitch and asexual, I’d have no hopes of escaping the Mary Sue bashers.

The problem is that they’re all needed. Will to Act is a large-scale retelling of AOTC and follows its dual narrative structure, so Qui-Gon has to take care of Obi-Wan’s quest. Dooku’s too busy on Geonosis to go chasing after Anakin and Padmé. And if there’s no-one to interfere there, that plotline will take its AOTC shape, which will be boring. Then there’s a large plothole in the end that needs a Sith Infiltrator to plug it up. This means at least two OCs are needed, plus a third for Obi-Wan’s emotional reasons.

Beyond that, each of the OCs serves as a foil for a canon character. Ador is a counterpoint for Anakin and Padmé, the one who puts strange and dangerous thoughts in their heads. Damay lets Qui-Gon and later also Padmé shine: he asks them questions and gives them opportunities to articulate their own thoughts. Est... okay, Est is a pain in the arse, but a cute one. And he’s got a total of three scenes so far, in one of which he gets Dooku to open up, which alone is worth keeping him.

My question: is this too much? I’m not afraid of original characters, but out of an eight-strong main cast three are OCs. I’m wondering if it’s worth it to get creatively invested in something people will dismiss as weak origific or Sith Mary Sues.

(Even though the Qui-Gon|Obi-Wan|Anakin dynamic I’ve got set up is absolutely delicious. With lots of manly touching, natch. Am thinking of pawning Padmé off on Ador and pushing these three into bed together.)

Comments

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

Hee! I think I am looking forward to this AU of yours. Seriously.

And no, I don't think it's too much. I had to create three new villains for my WIP. I can say with some confidence none of them are Sues/Stus (though I am not so arrogant to say they're good OCs, just that they're not Sues/Stus). All three were necessary to the plot, and play off against the canon characters. As long as your OCs are there to bolster and help the canon characters shine, I think they're great additions. I love OCs.

Take the EU book, "Shatterpoint" by Matthew Stover, for example. I consider the EU to be published fanfiction. So their OCs are as closely scrutinized as ones I see fanfic. And in Shatterpoint, Stover has brilliant OCs. Chalk, a fierce girl with a larger gun. Nick Rostu, a young, smart-ass Han Solo-type. Kar Vastor, a vicious, snarling wild villain. I love them all, they help make Mace WIndu and Dep Billaba shine in the story. I especially like Nick. OCs are a good thing when done right.

So write what you think is necessary to the story, just be careful not to get carried away. And good luck. :D

[winter]

Heh, now I've got another book on my to-read list - after the ROTS novelization, I'm a Stover fan :)

I guess it's just a question of how much time to spend on a character, story-wise. I don't want the story to seem imbalanced just because I'm afraid to go too far into an original character's narrative, but on the other hand I know that any introspection of OCs (or gods forbid interaction between them) will bring the Sue-hounds on my head :S

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the RotS novelization yet, but while he's grammatically inconsistent and sometimes doesn't carry SW canon very strongly, he does a good job with plot and OCs. I'm very impressed by that.

*nods* Tell only what you absolutely need about the OC. If you wonder if you should cut the info because you can live without it, then cut it. Minimalization is good with OCs, at least at the beginning. Once the people warm up to them, then you can dish out a little more info as you go and as you need.

[winter]

The novelization's rather lovely - I like the character introspection and the slashy overtones, including the infamous "Obi-Wan studies Anakin's butt" moment. I recommend it :)

So far in the draft progress, in the first large-ish chapter one OC has two lines and a single appearance (without his name being mentioned), while another's existence is indicated with a single line. I think I know how to handle this.

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

Once it coems out to paperback, I shall definitely get it. I'm looking forward to his infamous moment of butt-studying. ;D

First chapters are always the most difficult for me. *awaits fic*

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Original characters who are *villians* should be interesting, while original characters who help the hero should just not be allowed to steal the spotlight.

Let Padme shine. She was still gutsy and sharp in AotC, even if Lucas can't write dialogue to save his life. I know that people like to slash Obi-Wan/Anakin, but really, Anakin has been fixated on her since he was *nine*; if he's going to be chasing Obi-Wan, it will be in addition to chasing Padme, not instead of chasing Padme.

[winter]

The problem is, I don't know if they count as villains. Sure, they're on the Dark Side, but their objective is to make Obi-Wan and Anakin join them. I've had a lot of fun devising a twisted dynamic between all the Sith, with Qui-Gon at the centre, and it's going to be a rope-walking act not to drown the reader in that.

Padme'll definitely get to shine. The way it's going, that side of the story is hers far more than Anakin's, and it's again through her that Anakin's tempted by the Dark Side. I want to explore something I saw hinted at in AOTC - the fact that she's tired of serving the public, that she might want to have a normal life, but she still has her duty.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

This is Star Wars so if they are on the Dark Side, be definition they are villians -- perhaps *redeemable* villians, but villians.

Yes, I'd certainly like to see a Padme who actually confronts herself about the pull between her dreams (family, a quiet life) and what she sees as her duties.

[winter]

I'm afraid the way I'm going with this fic, no-one's walking away unmarred. Except the permanently dead ones. Maybe.

I'm still not sure where exactly Padme is going here, but it's going to be very fun writing her, that's for sure.

[kyrre.livejournal.com]

I am so curious :) Eight characters are not too much as long they have each enough room for development. The question I ask myself if there is another existing character who can take over their plot tasks without much fuss. If yes, the particular character needs more depth or they should be merged.

[winter]

That's my point, all of them are needed. If I take out Damay, all falls down - Qui-Gon has no-one to talk to, Padmé has no-one she can open up to, and one scene near the end can't happen (and a) I love it, and b) it's needed to tie up a plotline). Ador's Padmé's and Anakin's villain, not allowing them to descend into Lucas-written sappiness. Est could possibly be taken out, but his role is small (though important) already, and without him the dynamic doesn't work :S

Damn. I plot too much.

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Original Characters are definitely more than welcome in any story. If you need them, go fo it :) I trust you enough as a writer to definitely write non-Sue OCs :)

[winter]

I'm pretty sure I can do it, but not 100% ;) I probably will write it, it's just a question of whether or not to post it. Argh.

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

...

Wench, you are evil! You can't tease us with this delight and then tell us you won't post it!

[shisakura.livejournal.com]

I guess it all depends on whether you can get the reader to like those OCs of yours and want to know more about them or not :x

[winter]

*innocent whistle*

I think I can manage that. A little :>

(I mean, come on. Sidious has fangirls. Ador's positively fluffy compared to him.)

[shisakura.livejournal.com]

....*innocent whistle of her own* >>

*is a Sidious fangirl* :D;;;

Then if you can do that, go for it >:E Personally, I enjoy OCs a lot. Although I don't quite read SW fanfiction at all :D;;;

[kiraboshi.livejournal.com]

There have been several fics or novels I've read with main OCs that help drive the plot that I've liked. I think you're going in the right direction -- if you develop them and give them a legitiment reason for being there, then they won't take over as mary sues tend to do. I'm reminded of Kit Fisto in The Cestus Deception -- he was an OC that drove half the book, but was enjoyable because him being there made sense.

Have I? I, too, always worry that OCs are becoming mary sues and often over-question their existance.

[winter]

It's just that I've had bad experiences before. In one fic, the first part of a series, I had three OC appearances. One male had one line and a paragraph of narration from his POV, the other got half the fic devoted to a conversation between him and the canon character. Between the two was a female with three lines of utilitarian dialogue. An enthusiastic review I got ended with "I think I might be able to tolerate [female character] as well." For another story, which utilized a very minor character, I got the following gem: "I thought the woman was an original and I'm glad to be proven wrong". People are paranoid about OCs :S

[atheva]

Having not read any of the other comments posted in response to this (yet), I would say that it's not too much. A well-written OC can be equally beloved as a canon character. OCs are, as you mentioned, also good for getting things done and plots moving that the canon characters are too busy or otherwise unable to do. Personally, I rather enjoy OCs.

[winter]

Thanks :) I've written some choppy/drabbly stuff lately, and I'm feeling like writing a full-bodied story for once - which is hard to do with just four characters.

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

I think 3 OCs is pushing it, but as long as you validate their existence in the plot it should read fine.

Be careful of the opposite of that: where an OC feels like it was created for the sole purpose of speaking one line or solving one plot knot.

If your fic is of reasonable length, you shouldn't encounter any of the above problems. I don't say write it well because I know how you write^_~

[winter]

Pushing it? Could you elaborate?

The only one who could fit the mold of "solving one plot knot" could be Est. But I've tried plotting it without him and it just doesn't work - if I take him out, there's a big black hole in the middle of my story :S I'll need to find him something to do...

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

Well, one OC is usually tolerated by readers in part because he/she presents an unknown variable element to the plot. 2 OCs is still okay because the writer will usually either pair them together or make them friends so they play off each other by presenting information to the reader that the main characters will not divulge or by contrasting each other's character. 3 OCs and you'll have readers wondering if you're trying to fill in the roles/plot with extra characters.

Can you see my point of view? OCs are something of a rare species and quite difficult to tame. Making sure they don't tear your story apart by their own hands is something of a challenge^^

Have you tried merging Est with another OC? Sometimes that works.

[winter]

I think I might be saved by the dual (or triple) plotlines here :) The OCs will rarely share screen time. I suppose I could have taken a "canon" EU dark Force-user (especially for Ador, she's a pain to characterize), but the problem is, I don't read EU.

I'm wondering whether to maybe write the first few sections, post them and see if people hate it as much as you seem to hate the very idea :S

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering whether to maybe write the first few sections, post them and see if people hate it as much as you seem to hate the very idea :S

"hate" is a strong word and I didn't mean to imply that I hated OCs. Perhaps I was a little too enthusiastic in my warning. It's a bad tendency of mine^^

[merentha.livejournal.com]

Mary-Sues are reviled because they break canon, and I think the main issue with Sith OCs is that they invariably break canon. You know, something about having two Sith lords at any one time, and here you have three. My interpretation of SW is that a Sith doesn't just appear out of the blue but that the Sith Master has to groom his choice of pupil to be the next Sith lord. You'll need a good explanation why there are spare Siths running around the galaxy.

Anyhow, I think it's possible to have evil manipulative OCs in Star Wars canon without making them Siths as well, but that's your choice as the writer.

[winter]

My problem is that it's the whole point of the fic - a different approach to bringing balance to the Force, if you will, by negating Darth Bane's reforms. They're definitely not out of the blue, and all doing bidding of their (canon) masters.

It's just that if I have Dooku drawing Qui-Gon to the Dark Side - as already the third Sith - there's no logical reason for them not to spend the ten years between TPM and AOTC not training additional apprentices in order to gather strength. Dooku himself might have been too busy, but he has Qui-Gon to help out. And even if my three are just dark Force-users (the line's a thin one), I have canon precedent in the forms of Ventress and Mara Jade.

Hm. Would it help if I changed the idea from plain "rebirth of the Sith" to "defeating them from the inside and replacing them with a better Dark Jedi Order"? :S

[merentha.livejournal.com]

There are two school of thoughts with regards to the "balance of the force". It depends which one you subscribe to.

The first school interprets it as a numbers game. Anakin kills off most of the Jedi, therefore resulting in 2 vs 2, i.e., Palpatine and Anakin vs Yoda and Obi Wan. However, there is the little complication of the twins, and the ghosts of Qui Gon (and later Obi Wan and Yoda).

The second school interprets it as a kind of middle path between extremisms of the old Jedi order and the Sith, in the sense that Anakin brings balance to the force through his son, Luke. The old Jedi order discards emotions and feelings as dangerous elements that would lead to the dark side. The Sith draws power from strong (and usually dark) emotions and feelings. Luke walks the middle path by trusting his feelings and harnessing them to reach through Darth Vader to the Anakin within. Anakin destroys Palpatine, leaving Luke to perhaps rediscover a new balanced Jedi order.

The interesting thing about the second school is that much can be written in the intervening years between ROTS and ANH about how Obi Wan began to drift from the ways of the old order, and exhorting Luke (albeit as a disembodied spirit) to "Trust your feelings, Luke."

I hate Star Wars, and yet I probably sound like a uber-fangirl. :P

[winter]

Ooh, that's exactly how I see it - the second way, with Luke being neither Jedi nor Sith, really.

Of course I'm sure Sith see it differently. And since I'm trying to keep them un-Mary Sue... :)

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Would it help if I changed the idea from plain "rebirth of the Sith" to "defeating them from the inside and replacing them with a better Dark Jedi Order

I've thought that maybe Dooku was trying to force change upon the Jedi and the Republic in the movies. His motivations are only thinly described in the films, so what I've cobbled together is that hubris -- confidence that he could use the Dark Side for his goal and walk away unscathed -- was his sin and the way he was destroyed. He let the ends justify the means, which is a Jedi habit as we saw in the prequels, and since the ends he wanted were so very grand and expansive, so were the means.

Which actually sounds a bit like what you are planning, but that maybe Dooku got even more out of hand thanin the movies?

[winter]

...You. Out of my brain ;P

The one thing I'm going off on is Dooku's comment that if Qui-Gon was alive, he'd join him. Everything happens as a consequence of a certain choice Qui-Gon makes.

Anyway, I've spent today plotting the fic out in detail, and it looks like I'll be able to wrap it up in 9 chapters. Damay and Est each show up once every 3 chapters, respectively to act clueless and to kill people. Ador's around a bit more, but she's sticking to being a mostly stock Mephistophelian villain, and she mercifully fades into the background as soon as Dooku's around to mess up Anakin's brain himself. I think this is going to work :D

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Really, I don't *mean* to mindread...

I love the idea that Qui-Gon runs off with Dooku, though I think Qui-Gon will have as much effect on Dooku as Dooku has on him. He's muley and intractable, remember, and even reflexes drilled into him during his apprenticeship are not going to overcome that, not after several *decades*.

[winter]

But of course :D I'm having almost as much fun with the Dooku-Qui dynamic as with Qui-Obi and Obi-Ani. All hail Lucas for coming up with the Master/Padawan system, the best way to produce twisted emotional attatchments ever!