Metacolour and other matters

[winter]

I'll be acquiring a fyrie this evening for a week, so LJ presence will be sporadical (though I'm planning to post some backlogged fic). Still, I thought I might as well ramble now:

I've been following the kerfuffle over writing "characters of colour" on metafandom for the past few days, and my eyebrows have slowly headed upwards. Okay, I get the attitude of the "fans of colour" like thete1 - they look at fandom and even if there are characters from their own culture in the source material, those characters are underutilised or mischaracterised in fandom. I get this: I also squee each time someone in a creative work has Polish or Russian roots, and facepalm if said character is stereotyped.

What I don't get is the defensive attitude of the other side. The whole approach of "I don't write characters of colour because as a white person I can't write them". The hell? Last I checked, the fact no-one on LJ is an elf didn't stop a whole lot of great LOTR and Silmarillion fanfiction from being written. I'm not a man, but my characterisation of males has been praised by Actual Guys. We do this kind of thing all the time.

And yet, for some people skin colour is a different characteristic. Which might stem from oversensitivity and being guilt-tripped to hell, but seems kind of like a racist attitude to me. Why should skin colour matter at all?

What matters to me is the cultural background of a character. If writing Gunn, say, I'd consider the impact poverty had on his life, the vampires, and yes, being part of a minority that's discriminated against. But those are the exact same issues I consider when writing Dima, a Roma thief who will appear in Roses for Lucifer. And I don't assume I know exactly how to write someone just because they're white - for writing British characters I research that culture, for writing Spanish people I tackle their popular tropes. Culturally conditioned responses are what I'm interested in, not skin colour. The members of a certain culture might have a skin colour in common, or be conditioned to respond in a certain way to one, but it's just one characteristic among many.

I guess what I mean is this: if we let skin colour be the end-all and be-all for a "character of colour", that seems racist to me. We're all human, people.

And part of the Polish culture is drilling Latin sentences into pupils. One from Terentius has just occurred to me:

Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto.

I am human: nothing human is strange to me.


And on that note, I'm going back to writing about a mad and repressed Austrian crown prince being molested by a graphomaniac vampire. Peace, all.

Comments

[alice_montrose]

You're writing Ludwig?

[winter]

Rudolf.

*notices angry glare*

Austro-Hungarian, of course. Here, have a snippet:

The hands slid over his hips slowly. Rudolf did not see them in the window, but he felt them, and they were there when he looked down. Long white fingers tipped with monstrous sharp nails. A vampire’s hands.

He felt they were claiming him, taking control of his body, pulling him back a fraction until he rested against a broad chest. He wanted to scream, but all that emerged was a mewling sound.

He’d said he’d do anything.

“Hush,” the vampire whispered in his ear. “I need to taste your thoughts, young Prince. I need to know you and what you need.”

“What I want?” Rudolf whispered breathlessly.

“What you need.”

[alice_montrose]

Ah, ok. I'd been wondering where Ludwig would fit in, and couldn't find an answer. ^^;;

Whee, snippet! *latches to you*

[winter]

Rudolf's plenty crazy enough for me, thank you. And I'm afraid I'm kinda stuck. A certain Johannes von Krolock is extremely indecisive as to what he should do with this opportunity. All I know is that Rudolf will be on his knees at one point, because I've watched the Essen choreography one too many times, and this is firmly Jesper Tydén as Rudolf :>

[alice_montrose]

Rudolf on his knees = GOOD!

Um... I really don't know what to tell you, mostly because I don't know what Johannes wants - to feel, to f**k, or to mind-control Rudolf into doing something. ^^;;;

[winter]

All of the above, though it's the sex that's giving me problems. Logistics of it - he maintains that pushing the boy face-down has its appeal, but so does watching the anguish, and then Rudolf has a lovely mouth, too. I think I might have to make him write out the pros and cons of each approach before he's able to decide.

*facepalms* Me and lemon-writing. I always end up doing graphs.

[valancystar.livejournal.com]

*chuckles* Oh, isn't it difficult when you just can't choose?

[winter]

I think I have the beginning of it, at least. And to think that it was meant to be such an innocent scene...

[valancystar.livejournal.com]

Innocent? A scene with von Krolock and Rudolf?

[winter]

Well, not that much of the "sex in every anatomically possible position" thing, then ;) I think I prefer for von Krolock to have the POV, at least he's vague about the sex bits. Rudolf's all @.@ and wanting to describe it in graphic detail.

[valancystar.livejournal.com]

Yes. Sounds like it'll be distracting enough even without graphic detail. ;-) Am trying to decide whether I should feel sorry for Rudolf.

[alice_montrose]

Okay, how about having Rudolph on his knees first, and then when he's got enough of that he can proceed to push him face-down. Given that he's a vampire, he should have enough stamina to make Rudolf a very, very happy bottom-boy, right?

[winter]

I think that's more or less what will happen :> With twists, of course.

[alice_montrose]

Of course! Where would the fun be, otherwise!

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Everything except what Rudolf wants! :D EVERYTHING! With fangs scraping in mock-promise and making him beg ;)

[valancystar.livejournal.com]

Whee!

*is just happy to get to see even a bit of that story*

Poor Rudolf. ;-)

[winter]

Oh, Rudolf will be getting cuddles by the end of it. From whom is a different question ;)

[valancystar.livejournal.com]

*grins* That's good. First he suffers, and then he gets a reward. Or something. ;-)

[winter]

*eyes outline* Muahahaha.

Ahem.

Right.

[valancystar.livejournal.com]

*giggles*

*is very curious about the fic*

[winter]

I was hoping to have it done today, but I think that's not to be. Alas, got sidetracked making my list of bootlegs :P

[valancystar.livejournal.com]

Well, good things are worth waiting for. :D Bootlegs are so distracting. Hmm. We should compare lists some time, shouldn't we? ;-)

[winter]

Rest assured that once I have it in some semblance of order, I'll post about it here :> I've had to separate Tanz, Elisabeth, Phantom, Cats, Jekyll & Hyde and Les Mis to separate pages on account of too much stuff...

[valancystar.livejournal.com]

Sounds promising. :D

[winter]

Meh, can't be arsed to work on it longer and have to go get ready to fetch a Certain Someone from the airport anyway. Here's what I have so far: http://www.freewebs.com/vonkrolock/

[reynardine.livejournal.com]

I think Americans may look at this issue different from Europeans, simply because of the way our country is comprised, and our troubled history. In America, black people do in fact have a separate culture, as do the Latinos, as do the various Asian immigrants, as do the whites, as do the native Americans. Within these cultures are sub-cultures as well.

I might be able to write a black character properly because my mother taught at a "black" school (Texas kept its school system illegally segregated until I was out of high school), and I lived in a primarily black neighborhood for a couple of years, but even then, it would be difficult to get it authentic. Latino maybe as well, because I grew up in a border state.

I'm not sure if European countries have this kind of divided society? When I visited a few countries as a child, I didn't see that many people of color living there, although I understand there's been a lot of immigration since then.

However, if put in a fantasy setting, the rules probably change. But we're so conditioned not to step on other races' toes that people are reluctant to take that leap.

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

I've noticed that the race-thing was hugely different to that of Europe when I was over, which was really odd. I mean, I come from Scotland - not exactly cultural melting pot of the world, but the divide and the clinging to ethnic roots thing startled me a lot.

I've actually got a family friend from Ghana who was bitching out about black people in America, because they kept calling her "sister" and spouting garbled racism against the whites and going on about the oppression of their brothers in Africa when she was over there. She said it got to the point that she turned to them and said "excuse me, I am not your sister. I am not of your family. Just because I'm not white doesn't mean I want to be related to an idiot like you".

Babbling now. Better stop :)

[winter]

I know they have a separate culture (though as Te brought up, it's nowhere near homogenous or encompassing anyone non-Nordic). I guess it's just that I don't see how different that would be from, say, a New Yorker writing about cowboys in Wyoming or something :) I think it's the conditioning about racism that you mentioned - it always puzzles me how deep it runs.

And I have the advantage of recent-immigrants class in a Paris school :> I was nine and learned pretty quickly that European, Arabic, African or Asian, boys are silly and should have rocks thrown at them. At which conclusion all my equally multiracial girlfriends agreed with me. Life's much simpler when you're nine years old ;)

[reynardine.livejournal.com]

Actually, the New Yorkers writing about Wyoming? Often, it's wrong, and bad, and horribly stereotyped. It's kinda funny you should mention that example--my husband's cousin actually is married a Wyoming rancher. Very different lifestyle out there from New York, or even where I live in Iowa, which is mostly rural itself!

(Strangely enough, the most famous fictional works about Iowa--The Music Man, Shoeless Joe (Field of Dreams) and The Bridges of Madison County--were pretty accurate. But they were written by people who had actually lived here at one time.)

Yeah, it's sad how deeply racism is ingrained in this country. Heck, I'm probably racist to some degree, even if I try not to be.

I agree, all boys are silly, and should have rocks thrown at them. ;-D Especially when you're trying to write them in a fic and they are not cooperating!!!

[winter]

No argument about that - I've seen my share of "OMGsoExotic" Russians, too :) But for some reason, no-one angsts and hems and haws about how they can't possibly write Wyoming residents because "they're not people like us".

Especially when you're trying to write them in a fic and they are not cooperating!!!

No argument there. I think I might have to threaten my vampire with holy water or something ;)

[atheva]

I'm all squeeing and flailing over this, Beth! What you've said is very sad and true. Though, considering that I just woke up, my brain isn't quite capable of making worthwhile discourse right now. I fail v.v

[winter]

*pats* I'm all fluffy-brained from what I think resolved to be flu, so never mind ;)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I've been following that discussion closely as well and...

one feeling I've got is how very American this issue is. The whole way of thinking the "races" in these terms are very American. There's a lot of racism in Europe, of course, but it's expressed in different ways. I'm not sure the "tone of colour" of people is important (and fetishized(?)) to same amount.

I would feel much more daunted at the idea of trying to picture a character from an existing real culture that would be very different/with which I have very little experience than with a Black American character.
Imaginary cultures/species/whathaveyou are not a problem because, unless you're doing an obvious parody of an existing one (see Lions of Al Rassan and ariss' reaction to the characterization of Ammar ;)) you don't risk to offend/get it so wrong it's ridiculous.

However writing Roma people would get me worried :) it requires a lot of good research to pull off IMO, but no it's not and it should never be considered impossible.

That latin quote rocks.

[winter]

I think that in Europe, it's the culture thing again. Arabs or Roma are discriminated against because of the cultural clashes, not because of skin colour, though the latter may be brought up in insults.

Writing a Roma character has me worried too, but I think I can fudge it via a combination of factors. I have fairly decent books on the subject, I won't be delving into the cultural factors much because he's been ostracised from the community, and finally Dima's not too bright. Cute, but not bright :>

Latin quotes are the one reason I'm happy with our literature education system. I have quotes for every season :D

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

The kerfluffle's been confusing me too, although I'm currently a couple of days behind on metafandom. I think there's definitely a big difference between the US and Europe, but it's difficult to figure it out because all sides take certain attitudes and situations for granted that don't make sense to the others.

[winter]

*nods* I think I take the European side of it, and the ingrained guilt-trip of "oh gods, our ancestors had slaves" just boggles me. Something fyrie brought up last night was that both the US and the UK have large populations of African origin, but in the UK black people on TV are taken as granted and nothing's made of it. I wonder if that would reflect in fandom for British shows as opposed to US ones?