International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[winter]

ibarw is on again, and after the recent kerfuffle (or does anyone remember it in the wake of the Boldthrough?), I've been thinking along the same lines.

One issue I often see in racism discussions is the Europe/America divide. Racism in America is something special, yes, but I think it's mostly because of how much it's been fought against and for, there. I wonder if it wasn't for the better: if Americans aren't perfect, at least they have the instinct to respond to an accusation of racism with "No, I'm not." Too often in Poland, the response is "So what?"

And I'm not talking about the usual angle, the black/white divide, though that one makes the news on the football field. Not even about Asians, though there was a recent stellar example of a big bazaar being shut down, then given an extension - "But only for the white merchants, because the Asians are all illegal immigrants". And no, the guy didn't lose his - ministerial - post over it.

The thing is, in Europe it's hard to say "white", and our racism problems aren't the ones that make big fandom debates. When did you last read a post railing against discimination of the Roma? Or Romanians even - in Poland, those two are often lumped together and passed off as thieves and beggars. Or the Ukrainian affair, which goes back centuries before there were either blacks or whites in what is now the US of A. And that's not even touching on the big bogeyman.

To apply standard American measures of political correctness to Poland would be to have a heart attack over every fridge magnet of a Jew counting money. It's a financial good-luck thing, on the lines of the Irish leprechauns with their beer and pots of gold (and somehow, the Irish sell them themselves), but put it next to the tele-evangelist who promises not sulphur, but the Jews coming to take everything away if people don't pray hard and give him money, and it starts being frightening. This is the country where accusations of Jewish blood are thrown in political debate as the highest insult.

This is the country that used to have three million Jewish citizens, once. Once.

So forgive me if I don't overlook these issues, if I don't close off my creativity in a garden where I pretend race doesn't matter at all, just because "it's an American issue". I'm too hot-blooded for that, too prone to overthinking to ignore the fact that if something conforms to the usual tropes because it's easier, it reinforces them in the reader, the watcher.

Mixing Russian, Ukrainian and Jewish blood probably wasn't one of my ancestors' brightest ideas.


(As an aside, I've also been thinking about the issue of writing about race or other discrimination from the point of view of a character with a cultural background and ideas different from my own. Would anybody be interested in reading something like that?)

Comments

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

When did you last read a post railing against discimination of the Roma?
Well there was that one Snarry fic with gypsies...

But seriously, great post. European racism is complex and very differently treated than in the US, and I realize that because of fandom I know more abotu American racism than I do about the French kind. I think we tend to be much more in denial about having a problem in Europe in general. In the US things can be very bad but it feels like there's always at least someone pointing a finguer at it, talking about it. I wish it was more often the case here.

Would anybody be interested in reading something like that?
Yes, of course.

[winter]

*nods* Precisely my point. Come to think of it, I could post a good bit about French racism issues based just on my Paris experience. Being in a class filled with fresh immigrants kind of dropped me straight into all the issues in miniature, especially the bit where I was considered dangerous and simple just because of being Polish.

I think I will write that second post, if only because I'm so prone to writing pre-modern characters. And because fyrie started full time work and I lack for distractions ;)

re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[a-blue-moon-cat.livejournal.com]

Interesting reading. But as a citizen of the US, I must say that there is a lot more going on over here in terms of racism, then just the black/white thing. I will mention that I live in the southeastern part of the USA, and until recent decades, it was indeed pretty much just a black-white thing here, but with more people of different skin colours and cultures moving in, I see more of the different types of racism that you are talking about. Jews are considered as "rich", therefore a target; Hispanics are mostly thought to be illegal (the fact that there are at least 20 million illegal immigrants in the US makes this worse) and most citizens and legal immigrants (espcially the legal Hispanic ones!) want them out of here; Muslims by and large are looked upon with fear and loathing (because of 9/11), even when it's obvious that they left a horrible place for some peace; and Asians look so different that again there is a problem in perception.

I think that the biggest problem though (besides the intense dislike of illegal immigrants, at least half of whom came here legally, but now have expired green cards or expired student IDs) is that all these new people pretty much keep to themselves, refuse to learn English, want signs and government forms in their language, keep to their own cultures, and quite often live in what amounts to ghettos, meaning that pretty much no other people of a different culture or race live in the same neighborhood. And in recent years, blacks have tended to stay within black neighborhoods and are now calling for segregation in schools. (Considering that in the metro areas of the SE, most public schools have as a majority black students, this call seems strange. At any rate, many white and Asian parents send their children to private schools which provide a better education, supposedly. Public schools here are seen quite often as catering to those who don't care to learn.)

All these newer people would meet with less racism if they embraced more American ideas, I suspect. My ancestors, even those who immigrated to this country less than a hundred years ago, came here for freedom, and were quite happy to embrace American ideas about freedom, whilst still keeping some of their old country's cultural ideas. Many of the newer immigrants are seen as not being interested in the ideals that this country was founded upon, but only in making money. (My grandfather was keen to become a citizen, but many people who come here are not interested!) Not there's anything wrong with capitalism, per se, but many of these newer people are interested only in the almighty dollar, and refuse to accept/understand that it is the ideals of this country that allow capitalism to flourish.

I must think of the Chinese in this context. They still claim to be Communists, but the economics of their country scream capitalism. Their communistic ideals are being eroded, and so the gov fights even harder to hang on to them, but it's a losing battle.

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[winter]

On the other hand, is it the fault of the different that they don't conform, or the fault of the majority that being different means you get treated worse? I would think that "Oh, behave just like whites and you'll get treated just like whites" is a less admirable attitude than "Let's all get along".

I would separate two types of racism - one is the very dangerous ideological "those people are lesser than us and are our enemies" thing (American black/white thing, European antisemitism and persecution of the Roma), and the other is everyday intolerance: "They're not like us, so why should we treat them well?"

The ideal society would be one in which you're not considered not to be entitled to normal participation just because you speak a different language or have a different family model. The "different = dangerous" connection is basic instinct, but we've managed to subjugate many others, so no harm in trying with this one, too. I think there's work to be done there on both sides of the divide.

(And that ties nicely into the essay I'm writing now, I think. Reading about other cultures means they're not so much strangers anymore, so fiction has a large role to play there.)

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

refuse to learn English
I don't remember where, maybe Language Log?, I saw someone comment that it's pretty tough finding English classes in the US. All classes filled, and it's expensive, and they may not give class at time practical for someone who works a lot to survive. Learning a language isn't that easy. The government could probably help there kind of thing by funding more classes for recent (and not so recent) immigrants.

When my grandparents immigrated to France, I'm pretty sure it was as much to make money (which they were rather successful in) as to flee antisemitism in the Eastern Europe. I don't think there's anything bad there, I think it rather help integration, actually schemingreader recently made a post about the loss of bilinguism for second generation immigrants, and that's true for my family too, my father never learned any of the languages that my grandparents used to speak. That's something rather sad, too.

I think the issue of ghettoes and what people call "communotarisme" in France is rather more complicated than people wanting to keep to themselves and refusing to assimilate. I don't think we should ask people to just drop their culture away, their cultures are rich, sophisticated, complex, it actually enriches hosting countries even in such a shallow way as pizzas, Thai food and couscous. There are issues of human rights, and that's what European racism often concentrates on, implying that Arab culture is intrasequaly misogynist and barbaric... but I think those two things should be treated separately.

[applegnat.livejournal.com]

Great post. As someone who's taken a fair amount of interest in how European society approaches racism over the last year, I have to say that it seems completely different from the way America constructs, supports, and deals with racist stereotypes, and seems much closer to the way regionalism, casteism and linguistic prejudice operates in India. The European variety bleeds right down from the viciously anti-Semitic, white-supremacist, and [now] anti-Arab/anti-immigrant sectarianism to the common but deeply ingrained prejudices of communities that have little power to hurt on an individual level but build up to something much bigger and darker. Recently the president of a football club in Italy came under fire for calling a Romanian player on a rival team a "cunning gypsy." He later called it "affectionate, almost a joke." In India, which is basically a lump of different religions and languages united by some pretty precarious geography, this is exactly how the incident would have been catalogued, explained away and forgotten.

Racism in Europe comes in so many different colours because it isn't actually a real continent or political entity in the sense that the US is. The communal mentality is too deeply ingrained in old civilisations for prejudice to die out. It's a pity that basic decency doesn't pass itself down, father to son, in the same way.

It's not an excuse. People have got to learn their lessons. We're supposed to be progressing through history.

[winter]

Oh, exactly - the lack of unification and so much history adds up to people thinking it's normal and nothing should be done about it. Still, one can live in hope, and most of all draw attention to it. After enough beating over the head, people might notice it's not a moral right.

[reynardine.livejournal.com]

Interesting post. I knew there was some racism in Europe (especially stress about Middle-eastern and Indian immigrants), but it always seemed to be a different creature than here in the US. Maybe it's because most of us are not "native"? When you're white, there's a lot of guilt thrown on you about issues like slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans--even if your family didn't show up here until long after that era was over and done with. (Disclaimer: while my father's family DID in fact come here during the 20th century, my mother is descended from some of the early settlers in Jamestown, VA. Yes, they had slaves. Yes, they took land from Indians. No, I don't think I owe anyone reparations for acts committed well over a century or two or three ago.)

Actually, I tend to take issue with the term "white" because there is a heck of a big difference in being from England as opposed to being from, say, Russia, or Italy, or Norway. But then again, so many of us Americans are "mutts" that I guess they had to call us something. Actually, there used to be quite a prejudice by Anglo-Americans towards the more recent European immigrants. H.P. Lovecraft's writings are filled with that kind of racism and it was standard for his time. I got angry reading one of my mother's family histories, because the preface warned the readers about diluting their "English" blood by marrying immigrants. And that was written in 1973!

I understand about the Roma prejudice and the antisemitism--my grandparents brought over those attitudes when they came here from Hungary. But antisemitism isn't as open here, especially after the Holocaust, and the Roma are so rare in America that most people don't care about them one way or another.

And yes, a story written about the subject would be interesting to read. You always address issues in fresh ways, and I'd be eager to see what you do with the subject.

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

All these newer people would meet with less racism if they embraced more American ideas, I suspect.

While this statement is probably true, I absolutely don't think they should. I hate the demands that we all hold to the same ideals, wear the same clothing, vote the same way, etc. That's bullcrap. If we're supposed to be a melpting pot, why can't we try to accept people for who they are. Perhaps if these immigrants were greeted with less skepticism and distrust, they'd be more willing to learn (and mind you, that costs money that many of them don't have, and a lot of them are trying) and adapt.

All cultures demand that people conform to the majority. I just wish the majority would try to meet the minority halfway. Why does anyone have to conform to be treated with respect? My father is a Cuban immigrant, is properly nationalized, thoroughly assimilated into American culture. And I hate being out of touch with my roots. I hate that my parents chose to not teach me Spanish so I'd "fit in" better. Even people raised in American society are becomign disillusioned, so why should our culture demand anyone conform to our "ideals"?

As for the American ideals, even Americans are obsessed with money. So you could argue the immigrants are conforming, all too well, to our excruciatingly materialistic society.

(Please note that this is a general argument, not directed at you specifically.)

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post. Much appreciated since I'm still seething about the suggestion that only Americans are racist in the last debacle. I know our particularly cutlural brand of racism is not like other countries, and some countries are better off than we are, but we're not the only place with issues. It was nice to read your post and have a different perspective and look at it.

[winter]

I think that the one unique feature of American racism is actually the fact that it's self-aware and compounded by culturally assimilated guilt. You're the place most aware of its own issues, really.

[winter]

And here we run into the Europe-as-one-country thing again - the issues you mention are British ones. France has its trouble with immigrants from Northern Africa, in Germany Turks are the most visible minority, and over here that'd be, in various ways, the Vietnamese, Arabs and people from the Balkans. Plus culturally ingrained nonsense like Polish antisemitism - between the war and the 1968 events, IIRC there's something like thirty thousand Jews left, if we define by religion.

And if you want intra-white prejudice, you should hear older-generation Germans and Poles ~_~ My grandparents loved the music from Elisabeth, but requested a copy of the Japanese soundtrack because they didn't want to listen to it in German.

And thinking of it, in a way in Europe the issue is so multi-lateral that it's harder to discuss - every society has prejudice of some sort against just about everyone else in proximity and whole groups it designates as "not entirely human like us".

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Like reynardine I generally take issue with the term "white" as well. While my skin is a light color and my great grandparents came from Europe, being Jewish really does still leave you as something as an outsider. I mean I'm from the NY but when I was a kid we had an old car that we were slow to get rid of and left in our backyard. (It was not viewable from the street) My parents live in a well off neighborhood, across the street and a few houses down was another Jewish couple and up the block a few houses were two African-American families, so it wasn't a segregated area. However, someone(s) still snuck into our yard and drew swastikas on the old dead car back there.

I would say in general Jews in the US are more accepted overall and antisemitism is frowned upon, but it is still alive and well. Though it is nothing compared to Europe. My husband wears a yarmulke all the time and I would worry about our safety in most countries in Europe doing this. I don't feel that way in the US.

I do think in general people here are more open about talking about racism and I would argue most people don't want to be called one and take pains not to be, while a song in a musical, "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist" really does ring true here in NY.

As for what people give up, it's a touchy subject. I know my in-laws thought I ought to follow the caveat "When in Rome" and not follow my "strange" Jewish traditions when with them. However, I am also acutely aware of the language losses between generations. My great grandparents all knew Yiddish and so did my grandparents. My dad and mom understood some but couldn't speak it. I and my siblings know a few scattered words more than the general public, but that's it.

[amelia-petkova.livejournal.com]

I agree with other posters that American racism is very much aware of itself (most of the time). That is one thing that can lead to improvements, as being conscious of a problem is often the first part to fixing it.

I had interesting experiences in American vs. European racism when I was in Spain this past semester. Racism there is blatant in a way that would not be allowed in the U.S. Most of my group was white, but two or three of my classmates were black, and they were often stared at when in public. One girl was very annoyed by this, but she was more sensitive in general; the other two mostly ignored or laughed at it.

I think in Spain much of the mentality is "different means bad." I don't know how large the Jewish population in Spain is, as all the Jews were either kicked out or forced to assimilate in the late 1400s, and Spain is still primarily a Catholic country, even though many people are not baptized and do not attend church regularly.

The Roma there are called Gitano, and are looked down upon as dangerous and poor. Much of this mindset is due to cultural differences that have centuries-old roots. It is true that some of the Gitano function only as pickpockets, but others follow laws as much as you and me. Again, appearance comes into play--one day a person told one of my classmates that she "looked like a Gitano" because she has darker coloring.

Spain also has an enormous immigrant issue. At this time most of the immigrants are from northern Africa (ex. Morocco) who come over in poor excuses for rafts and boats. Some of them are legal, but many are not. They have their communities everywhere, even under bridges, and have the jobs that the Spanish do not want, such as farm work during horrible heat. On the one hand, many Spanish fear that the immigrants are taking their jobs away. On the other hand, the birth rate in Spain is going down and there was a study done showing how many millions of immigrants would be needed to fill all the jobs that there are not enough Spaniards for.

As for me though, I cannot offer many personal experiences, as the majority of my family came to the U.S. over 100 years ago from countries such as Sweden and Germany. We're WASPs (with the exception that I am a White Anglo Saxon Pagan, not Protestant!)

I very much enourage the idea of writing from the viewpoint of a person with a different background that yourself. I know that it's tricky to pull off, and it satisfying when it works. I hope that you'll post it when you're finished.

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[a-blue-moon-cat.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, is it the fault of the different that they don't conform, or the fault of the majority that being different means you get treated worse? I would think that "Oh, behave just like whites and you'll get treated just like whites" is a less admirable attitude than "Let's all get along". I hope for the later, but I suspect that some white and black people in this country see it as the former. From what I observe that the more one assimilates into the American culture the higher the earning potential. And culture isn't something that needs to be brought into the workplace, simply because there are so many cultures and some one would feel excluded if they were allowed. Retail stores, for example, now have their employees say "Happy Holiday" during December, so as to include (and not offend) those who celebrate a holiday other than Christmas.

I would separate two types of racism - one is the very dangerous ideological "those people are lesser than us and are our enemies" thing (American black/white thing, European antisemitism and persecution of the Roma), and the other is everyday intolerance: "They're not like us, so why should we treat them well?"

I had not thought of putting the difference into words, but this sums it up very well.

The "different = dangerous" connection is basic instinct, There was an article on a science news site (maybe Discover?) that also tied into a tv show about the human face--this was a couple of years ago. A scientist and his group had measured the human face in many ways and found by experiment that people preferred those with regular features to those whose features were not so regular, and those whose features were terribly distorted were considered very low in any standard of beauty by any race or culture. His conclusion was that people looked for these regular features as an indication of health (now instinct, but once upon a time a conscious decision). It seems that many disease distort the face, so that was a good clue that a potential mate was not healthy and could not produce healthy children.

Instincts are indeed different things to conquer.

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[(Anonymous)]

You know, you can embrace freedom without assimilating into American culture.

In fact, I'm pretty sure the idea "if you force yourself to fit in, we'll be nice to you" is not only pointless (as it places the onus for change entirely on the minority groups, many of which will still *look* different, which will keep them from fitting in anyways as long as the majority has the power to pick and choose who is worthy of being treated like a human being), but damaging. It's promoting false multiculturalism: Everyone will get along, but only if they speak the same language, wear the same clothes, and follow the same traditions.

Populations change. Countries don't have to be homogenous to survive. If there are large enough populations of $language-speakers to make it worth the effort, they *should* demand (and obtain) street signs, health care, education, etc. in $language. Government services are, after all, meant to serve the people. Learning the language and cultural mores of the majority is handy, and helps with cross-cultural wossnames, but if people can get by without them, why should they be forced to do otherwise?

(Exceptions made for cultural practices that violate the law or human rights, of course.)


... As an aside, I always thought being interested in the almighty dollar was *the* essential American ideal. At least, that's how it's been presented to the rest of the world.

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[moustachios.livejournal.com]

Ack! Sorry; that was me.

[sukeban.livejournal.com]

I had interesting experiences in American vs. European racism when I was in Spain this past semester. Racism there is blatant in a way that would not be allowed in the U.S. Most of my group was white, but two or three of my classmates were black, and they were often stared at when in public.

As an Spaniard, I would like to point out that as recently as ten years ago we didn't have much of racial diversity, and many people have not digested the *extremely* sudden increase in immigrant population. We've gone from an imperceptible amount to over a 10% immigrant population in just a few years.

I don't know how large the Jewish population in Spain is, as all the Jews were either kicked out or forced to assimilate in the late 1400s

Oh, *worse* than that. People of Jewish ancestry, even when converted, were the most important target of the Inquisition: if your neighbours noticed that you didn't eat pork or rested on Saturdays, you'd be carted away, tortured and executed or sent to galleys. Moreover, "blood cleanliness" was a requisite for government positions and pretty much any other good job. There isn't much that the Nazis did that we didn't do four centuries earlier.

The Roma there are called Gitano, and are looked down upon as dangerous and poor.

In the past 30 years most of the gypsies have integrated in society, and it is not uncommon now to see them in college or in "regular" jobs. The gypsies you see begging in the street or wiping car windshields come mostly from Romania (and, frankly, when I went to Transylvania I was shocked at the level of casual racism thrown at them), while our gypsies are more likely to have shops in flea markets or drive a van around the countryside selling clothes or food in villages.

Some of them are legal, but many are not.

There have been two massive legalisation processes in the last 4 or 5 years, and nowadays most immigrants are legal, they have their own associations that provide legal counsel (e.g. ATIME is the association of workers from Morocco), and can avoid the most blatant type of exploitation. There are still cases of farm workers living in appalling conditions, but they are often denounced in the media.

The irony about Spanish discrimination of immigrant workers is that many of the older generation migrated to Germany in the 60s for the same reasons that people from South America or Africa are coming here now. It just makes the stupidity of this all more clear.

If you are interested, The New Spaniards from John Hopper is a very good book, and updated to fairly recent events, with a whole chapter devoted to immigration. I recommend it earnestly to anyone who wants to get Spanish society.

[alice_montrose]

When did you last read a post railing against discrimination of the Roma? Or Romanians even - in Poland, those two are often lumped together and passed off as thieves and beggars.

That's because the Roma that have emigrated from Romania are usually up to no good wherever they go. It's not that there aren't respectable Roma... it's because they don't want to change and adapt to society. Right now in Romania, I think 60% of the Roma population is employed; but their numbers are rapidly growing (and gods, do they have us Romanian nationals beat at natality rates ^^;;;) and about half of the criminal elements in our society happen to be of Roma nationality. Don't ask em why that is - maybe it's in their genes, or maybe they've gotten away with it so many times in the past that they will not change.

But then, they go abroad, and because they are Romanians, it's what they are called in the media. Let's face it, "Romanian citizen of Roma nationality" is a mouthful - so let's just call them all Romanians, shall we. This, in turn, causes discrimination against any Romanian person going abroad by sole virtue of a well-known and acknowledged fact: "Romanians are thieves and criminals, and we don't want them in our society".

It's the same way that we (Romanians as a people) look at Bulgarians as car thieves, and at Hungarians as nationalist extremists. But I won't get into the Hungarian nationality issue, because it's still a sensitive topic here and frankly I don't think I can approach it without being biased... and sounding like I'm discriminating. Which, in truth, I would be (we have perfectly nice Hungarians as well as the other category).

OT: Did you get my envelope yet, or do I bite off some Post Office heads next week?

[amelia-petkova.livejournal.com]

I learned about this a bit in my classes, but not much, because our school isn't very good. I do remember hearing about the legalisation processes you mention.

The irony about Spanish discrimination of immigrant workers is that many of the older generation migrated to Germany in the 60s for the same reasons that people from South America or Africa are coming here now. It just makes the stupidity of this all more clear.

Exactly! It's a cliche, but history really does repeat itself. When we were learning Spanish history our teacher made a point of telling us all the countries people migrated to for better jobs, getting away from the Franco regime, etc. Along with the African immigrants, there was a bar near my apartment that I went to regularly where almost all the employees were from various South American countries, and the owner is French.

Thanks for the book recommendation. (I read entirely too much.) Nice to meet you! I like your Hellsing icon.

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[a-blue-moon-cat.livejournal.com]

(Okay, I will have to post this in two parts, as LJ just told me it was too long.)

Please note that the original comment was not necessarily my thoughts and feelings on any of these matters, but kind of a general observance of what I read and hear and see in my little part of the world.

I too have read recently (and don't remember where) about the problem with finding English classes in the US. I also believe that there was an NPR (National Public Radio--always in danger of losing funding from Congress) commentary on this. And English is one of the hardest languages to learn, as the rules are broken at every turn, due to the huge assimilation of other words and language rules from other languages! English is not very pure, and we don't have an Academy of Language to keep it pure. :) I wouldn't want to have to learn it as an adult, that's for sure!

I agree with you that the issue of ghettotiziation is complex, but myself and many others could also feel excluded when we drive down long stretches of Buford Hiway and there are no signs for miles in English, only in various Chinese or other Asian characters. If a person who is not Asian goes into one of these stores, they are viewed very differently from the Asian customers. That is also sad. And of course it is sad that it goes both ways.

Some friends and I have found ourselves in restaurants from time to time where all the clientele was black and so were the workers. In all but a few times, we were treated very badly, with little-to-no service and poor food quality if we did get any food there. On at least two occasions, we left the restaurant and went elsewhere to find ourselves in a multi-culture resturant where the black and whites worked together and the cleintele was also the same. Racism, especially between whites and blacks in this country, goes both ways. But no one ever mentions that! It's terrible that there is still racism, but it is also bad that only one type of racism is put down, the white racism against the blacks. Black people's racism against whites is hardly ever spoken of, or if it is, it is denied.That, of course, is not true. I have seen many times how black service workers will be super-nice to blacks, and then seen the same people turn around and treat white customers like scum--and those white people were probably like me, totally innocent, and had not done anything bad to those particular black people. The vast majority of white people in this country did not have ancestors who owned slaves (which is a horrible thing for anyone to endure, and alas, it is still going on in third-world countries) yet we are all treated as though our ancestors did. This bothers me a lot. My father's family in the old country were not well-off, and were something close to servants, or even slaves themselves. My mother's family, and we can trace it back somewhat, were always poor dirt farmers--they barely kept themselves alive, and we can't imagine that they had money to spend on black slaves. My Irish ancestors weren't any better off than my Czech ancestors. All my ancestors came to America for a better life; sometimes they found it, sometimes they did not.

(Continued in next reply.)

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[a-blue-moon-cat.livejournal.com]

My father did not learn Czech or any of the other languages that he grew up hearing. There is regret there, to be sure, and also he and his brothers did not learn much of the culture of the land that their father and his family came from. I find that quite sad. I know so little of Czech culture and customs, and would like to know more. But my mother's family, who came mostly from Ireland, also forgot their Gaelic and learned American English when they came to the US, and also lost much of their culture. American white culture is mostly English-based, but as I have researched over the years, a lot of it is also strongly Germanic-based. Much of the culture of the Midwest is more Germanic-and-Scandinavian-based than English, for example. We lived out West for a while, and my parents observed this; my mother started cooking in that style, and pretty much gave up on the Southern style of cooking, which is mostly frying meat to death and boiling veggies to death. :) But both types of cooking are still bland and use little spices or seasonings.

A loss of culture is always something to regret, but the new culture should not supercede the old. Nor should the old be held onto, in total defiance of the new. There must be moderation and a gradual merging. Or at the very least, one ought to be able to cherry-pick what one wants out of any and all cultures. :)

As for human rights, that is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

[alice_montrose]

The gypsies you see begging in the street or wiping car windshields come mostly from Romania (and, frankly, when I went to Transylvania I was shocked at the level of casual racism thrown at them)

As a person living in Transylvania, I might have an explanation for this. Discrimination is thoroughly bred into the non-gypsy population from a very early age. It's even worse in the rural areas, where most of the poor are Roma. A few years ago, most had no jobs, a herd of kids which made it possible for them to live off the state-granted allowance, and the literacy levels were low. They still are, but it's steadily improving.

Of course, the Roma aren't the only ones we (as a nation) discriminate against. There's the Hungarians, and the sexual minorities, and all those aspects of society that Communism fought really hard to cause the disappearance of. Things are changing, but it's a very slow process, and most of the older generations are unlikely to embrace this.

I am not trying to make any excuses. I know I definitely discriminated against people, and I like to think I'm one of the open-minded individuals around here. I try my best... but sometimes those notions they bred into me get triggered and before I realize it, I've done it again. I feel bad about it afterwards, but... yeah. *sigh*

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[a-blue-moon-cat.livejournal.com]

Be sure and jump back up and read my three newest replies to replies. I agree with you totally, but was just trying in my very first reply to bwinter's original post to show what I see of common American perceptions. Or, should we say, common mis-perceptions?

Really, I see now that I should have prefaced the original reply with words to that effect. Don't shoot the messenger, please?

Re: International Blog Against Racism Week: Central European perspective

[a-blue-moon-cat.livejournal.com]

No problem. :) Be sure and jump back up and read my three newest replies to replies. I was just trying in my very first reply to bwinter's original post to show what I see of common American perceptions. Or, should we say, common mis-perceptions?